Stackoverflow hMail Support Tag

Forum for things that doesn't really have anything to do with hMailServer. Such as php.ini, beer, etc etc.
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Dravion
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Stackoverflow hMail Support Tag

Post by Dravion » 2019-07-19 06:44

Support topics regarding hMailServer are discussed at Stackoverflow as well.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/hmail-server

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Re: Stackoverflow hMail Support Tag

Post by SorenR » 2019-07-19 13:58

Dravion wrote:
2019-07-19 06:44
Support topics regarding hMailServer are discussed at Stackoverflow as well.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/hmail-server
That is an endless battle ... Tell them to come here, where there are experts available.
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Re: Stackoverflow hMail Support Tag

Post by Dravion » 2019-07-20 02:03

Sorry, but Stackoverflow is one of the most important sites for Developers and IT-Professionals. It is valuable to have Stackoverflow involved. I also backlink to the forum and Github accounts.

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Re: Stackoverflow hMail Support Tag

Post by sgorbach » 2019-07-20 10:38

I have a kind-of-off-off-topic question:

Who's paying for this page+forum? I guess it's Martin. As a long-time user of hmail I have nothing but the best to say about Martin and all the other devs who contributed, but having said that, if Martin really steps to the side of this project (for whichever reason, he has all the right to do so) losing this forum would be a big loss for us.
I'm "old school" (as I bet many of us over here are) in my distrust/fear regarding popular sites becoming the center to all information, I'd very much prefer to keep this forum as the center of hmail's world over stackoverflow, without taking away the merit stackoverflow deserves. But at the same time, usage of almost everything online changed a lot in the last ~15 years. I'm not sure how many active installations of hmail are out there in production, I fear it's better not to know sometimes as the number could very well be below 3 digits. People don't think about hosting stuff these days, specially mail servers, specially on windows, so I guess it's natural for the "old forums" to migrate to stackoverflow-like places.
The only gripe I have with stackoverflow actually has nothing to do with them: A long time ago I used experts-exchange a lot (I bet there are other old-timers like me who used it), and suddenly they closed up most of the answers because they needed cash to survive. I understand they had full right to do so, but it also made me understand that you can't really trust third parties to care about the forum and/or content they host, specially when they do it for free. Stackoverflow is great, wikipedia is great, but what if they don't exist anymore in the future or close up the answers behind a paywall?
To end this post, I wish Martin (or whomever is hosting this place) gives the community the option to take care of the hosting duties if keeping it online is no longer a priority. I guess many of us would be willing to host it, and I really hope that if the project ends up migrating away from Martin this info won't be lost.

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Re: Stackoverflow hMail Support Tag

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-07-20 11:40

SorenR wrote:
2019-07-19 13:58
Dravion wrote:
2019-07-19 06:44
Support topics regarding hMailServer are discussed at Stackoverflow as well.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/hmail-server
That is an endless battle ... Tell them to come here, where there are experts available.
Dravion wrote:
2019-07-20 02:03
Sorry, but Stackoverflow is one of the most important sites for Developers and IT-Professionals. It is valuable to have Stackoverflow involved. I also backlink to the forum and Github accounts.
I think what can be said here is that although Stackoverflow has its uses, the posters on there would easily resolve their problems or get the answers they need if they were to use this forum.
ie
Q: "I have a problem with Hmailserver. Its doing [this wierd thing] and dont know what to do"

A: "I dont know but try asking at the Hmailserver forum - there are many users/experts there that will have the answer for sure."

"ok, thanks."
Looking at the question/answer count on Stackoverflow it is obvious that the knowledge and use of the suggestions is limited by many of the volunteers given the depth of detail given and/or the complete lack of answering at all. After all, a forum that is read, maintained and contributed to by expert users of the product in question can only, at worse, have the same level of chance of knowing the answer but at best highly likely to know the answer through experience and of the users and the dedicated searchable postings.


sgorbach wrote:
2019-07-20 10:38
I'm not sure how many active installations of hmail are out there in production, I fear it's better not to know sometimes as the number could very well be below 3 digits.
https://www.hmailserver.com/download_archive

Thats 1.1million downloads of PRODUCTION versions since 5.6 November 2014. 257,000 of the latest 5.6.7 build alone. And those numbers or not including +67K of none-production BETA downloads.

Even if those 257,000 are upgrades of existing installations, and factoring in only trial downloads that dont make installation, I think you will conclude it is just a little more than "well be below 3 digits". :roll:
HMS 5.6.6 B2383 on Win Server 2008 R2 Foundation, + 5.6.7-B2415 on test.
SpamassassinForWindows 3.4.0 spamd service
AV: Clamwin + Clamd service + sanesecurity defs : https://www.hmailserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=26829

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Re: Stackoverflow hMail Support Tag

Post by Dravion » 2019-07-20 11:48

There are some valid points in your posting.

I think we should offer all resources we have to provide support as best as we can.
Stackeroverflow and Superuser are two oft the most important sites with heavy traffic and exists for years and both
are handled by the same Company. I cannot count how many times in the last 10 Years i found good Ideas and Solutions
on both Sites for a lot of Problems. Stackoverflow is well known by almost any Developer and Superuser is System administrators
best friend.

But i don't see us in the Situation to choose.
If someone can learn something from Stackoverflow so be it, if a Solution can be found on this Forum, so be it.
The same goes for Github, Gitlab or Reddit, ect.

Regarding this Forum:
I provided a lot of Guides and Tutorials and i have copies of it offline.
I think we should manufacture a Offline copy of the Documentation which can be distributed whith any Installer of hMailServer.

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Re: Stackoverflow hMail Support Tag

Post by palinka » 2019-07-20 13:07

jimimaseye wrote:
2019-07-20 11:40
https://www.hmailserver.com/download_archive

Thats 1.1million downloads of PRODUCTION versions since 5.6 November 2014. 257,000 of the latest 5.6.7 build alone. And those numbers or not including +67K of none-production BETA downloads.

Even if those 257,000 are upgrades of existing installations, and factoring in only trial downloads that dont make installation, I think you will conclude it is just a little more than "well be below 3 digits". :roll:
Exactly. I get a lot of traffic on my firewall ban demo site. All of it comes from here, obviously. Anyway, the point is i know that traffic is barely scratching the surface of the hMailServer user base.

Also, it would be interesting to see some statistics on how hMailServer is used. A large part of the user base appears to be a niche use for relays within a larger environment. There are so many posts here related to exchange/ hmailserver. It's because hmailserver is the easiest to set up and it has a pretty small footprint.

That's also why I'm sure when Dravion's HCD project comes online for linux it's going to explode. Mark my words - traffic here will quintuple overnight. There's simply no other product like hmailserver.

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Re: Stackoverflow hMail Support Tag

Post by sgorbach » 2019-07-20 19:21

I agree with many of the things said.

My bad, there are way more than 3 digits, but when I said that and came up with that number from nowhere, I was trying to say this: In "production" to me means a real mailserver that has to be taken care of with updates, backups, anti-abuse rules, important content stored within, active use by human users and so on. I have a feeling that many of the installs are for specific duties or systems but not what I myself would call "a real mail server". I'd love to be wrong though.

Sometimes the feeling I get is that of a pseudo-abandoned project with no clear roadmap aside from individually led subprojects. If I'd have to predict based on other projects I used and/or collaborated with in the past, I'd venture to say a fork is almost unavoidable unless some project leadership is restored and a clear roadmap is set with some strong steering in some directions which are ignored now.

Besides the standard reasons for the "abandonment" for many open projects (i.e.: lack of time, world changes, fading interest, we all get older, families grow, better alternatives, etc.) there's a clear change of direction in the server world, almost everything runs one way or another over linux now and the concept of self-hosting is being deprecated by many as they move to the "cloud" (with both good and bad reasons for and against). hMailServer is at its heart a GREAT server, with great devs (Martin and many others that helped on those times Martin wasn't available) but clearly from a "different time" in the industry.

The weak link in hmail is probably Windows as the sole platform long-term, I guess most of us would agree on that at this point, and yes, I agree that making it run on linux would make it explode... or at least have a really good shot at doing so. On the other hand, there are many enterprises that will NOT move from Windows anytime soon, but even Windows is adopting linux-compat both in desktop and server. Also for years now most users seem to think mail comes always and by default integrated with contacts/calendars/etc, of which hMail knows nothing about, and I'm ok with that but for a real implementation in this smartphone-first world it's a big roadblock for new installs. Also the COM-based administration, that's far for ideal at this point, I guess the web consoles are the default now.

I really like the internal organization of information and data in hmail, its lean core and scripting. Many options in the linux world are so ingrained to the "old concepts" (such as being tied to system-user mailboxes) that I really never found an ideal replacement on the posix side for hmail, and trust me, I've tried/worked with quite a few options over the years, there are always things I miss.

Regarding the site and documentation, I also have offline copies just in case but it's always easier to rebuild a site/forum with code and db dumps rather than reconstructing from archived html. I offer hosting for the forum and site if it's ever needed, my infrastructure is humble though.

Sorry for the long chain of text

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Re: Stackoverflow hMail Support Tag

Post by SorenR » 2019-07-20 21:42

I've been using hMailServer since 2006. It replaced Kerio WinRoute Pro that I got shortly after Kerio bought Tiny.

It has served my personal domain and some business domains over the past 13 years.

There... That's ONE real long-time user :mrgreen:

Never had any use for a mailserver until we moved to Singapore in 2000 and I've had it since, unlike some of my co-workers I grew up with IBM VM/CMS (EARN, BITNET & NETNORTH) and never really got into the mailserver stuff until I got my hands on a SUN Sparkstation in the early 90's for a customer working with SNMP monitoring. Later I used a Compuserve ID and linked it to my Lotus Notes on OS/2 which also served as a APPN/APPC/LU6.2 gateway for our AS/400.

Right now I got some spare components so I'm building a new mailserver on a 64bit OS for future upgrades.
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Re: Stackoverflow hMail Support Tag

Post by sgorbach » 2019-07-20 22:05

SorenR wrote:
2019-07-20 21:42
I've been using hMailServer since 2006. It replaced Kerio WinRoute Pro that I got shortly after Kerio bought Tiny.

It has served my personal domain and some business domains over the past 13 years.

There... That's ONE real long-time user :mrgreen:

Never had any use for a mailserver until we moved to Singapore in 2000 and I've had it since, unlike some of my co-workers I grew up with IBM VM/CMS (EARN, BITNET & NETNORTH) and never really got into the mailserver stuff until I got my hands on a SUN Sparkstation in the early 90's for a customer working with SNMP monitoring. Later I used a Compuserve ID and linked it to my Lotus Notes on OS/2 which also served as a APPN/APPC/LU6.2 gateway for our AS/400.

Right now I got some spare components so I'm building a new mailserver on a 64bit OS for future upgrades.
I also used Tiny WinRoute for a long time, when it changed hands to Kerio and began to grow in requirements (it was no longer "Tiny") I lost interest in it. But in my case the migration of the mailservers I managed back then and what would be my current production server (inheriting accounts from those servers) were from Mercury/32. I really don't have track of how long I've been using hMail, but at the very least 10 years. Good, simpler times back then!

PD: Sorry for hijacking the thread with nostalgia and wishes!

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Re: Stackoverflow hMail Support Tag

Post by palinka » 2019-07-20 22:15

sgorbach wrote:
2019-07-20 19:21
Also for years now most users seem to think mail comes always and by default integrated with contacts/calendars/etc, of which hMail knows nothing about, and I'm ok with that but for a real implementation in this smartphone-first world it's a big roadblock for new installs.
Aside from exchange, is there a single install package that does mail, contacts & calendaring? I don't know the answer to that but i think it's very few.

Personally, i use horde with activesync alongside hmailserver and it runs like a top for both mobile and outlook on desktop.

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