Time to say good bye ...

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estradis
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Time to say good bye ...

Post by estradis » 2019-05-13 20:02

estradis wrote:
2019-04-26 09:34
... the executive board will probably decide to replace hms.
(https://www.hmailserver.com/forum/viewt ... ad#p211279)

We had some long discussions, but finally a decision was made. We're going to migrate from hms to another system! It was good as long as it lasted, but now it's time to say goodbye!

Since we don't have a roadmap yet, we may stay in the background, but we won't invest any more time or work on troubleshooting or testing.

I really hope that the community will raise hms back to its former glory, but to be honest, at the moment hms seems to me to be a ship without a navigator.

I wish you a lot of success for the future.

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jimimaseye
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-05-13 21:18

estradis wrote:
2019-05-13 20:02
I really hope that the community will raise hms back to its former glory, but to be honest, at the moment hms seems to me to be a ship without a navigator.
I fully understand your sentiment there. It's a shame. Such software cannot be left for years expecting it to continue sailing. It's needs constant reviewing and updating to keep it relevant and safe.

[Entered by mobile. Excuse my spelling.]
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jim.bus
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by jim.bus » 2019-05-16 22:12

I'd like to know what the future for hMailServer is. I know Martin seems to not be involved anymore. I also know some of the people on the Forum such as Dravion are working on updating hMailServer such as updating it to x64. hMailServer is in need of being updated to TLS 1.3 as I believe it was recently released.

So far I have seen references to Builds being developed on Github but these Builds unless I am mistaken seem more like Betas and not ready for stable Production Release usage. Will there be any future Stable Release (Production level) Builds for hMailServer and where will the Builds be found. Only on Github or on hMailServer.Com?

Apparently some people still find hMailServer to be a popular email server because I find it in search results for popular 2019 email servers and I very much like hMailServer myself but we cannot keep using an email server which is falling further and further behind in its maintenance needs such as falling behind in new encryption protocol releases.

If hMailServer is not going to be maintained then some of us are going to have to start looking for other alternatives before hMailServer gets too outdated. I believe another maintenance need of hMailServer which probably will eventually need to be addressed is in using MySQL. Last time I checked MySQL website the only version offered was MySQL 8 in 64 bit version for which hMailServer was normally incompatible with. For the time being there are 32 bit MySQL Clients .dll which can be used with MySQL 8 but I believe you have to use the Legacy Option of MySQL 8 in order to use the 32 bit MySQL Client and the implication was the Legacy Option would not be around forever.

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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by RvdH » 2019-05-16 23:12

Nice story...a lot of questions though...
I understand exactly what you trying ask, answering is another thing without knowing Martin's plans and ambitions in this project.

A few answers are obvious though...all forks, like dravions and mine are never to be released through the official hmailserver.com website as we simply don't have access to it, we are all just enthusiastics who 'try' to keep this project alive and are in no way involved in the official builds. We sorely made adjustment to the source, like update the openssl or experimental features like OnHelo en OnClientLogon eventhandlers,

A sign of life, or at least a statement by Martin is what you need,...correction: is what we all need !!!
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by Bill48105 » 2019-05-16 23:39

I talked to martin briefly the other day so he's around. hmail is just very back back back burner these days. Few of us still provide hmail support on IRC but not sure any of us actually still use hmail at this point.. Well I still run an old copy of 5.4 but even that is going away soon having discontinued offering hosting services 2 years ago & slowly migrating things away.
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-05-16 23:56

Watcha bill. Nice to have you pop in.

Where/ how/ why did you get talking to Martin? Did he give an inclination that he is not bothered about it nowadays?
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by Bill48105 » 2019-05-17 00:02

yo jimimaseye how's it goin? I use top secret bat phone :D hmail dev didn't even come up.. I was looking for someone else who I figured he knew how to find & only spoke long enough to share pleasantries & get that info. Figure in the past if he's not around here he's busy with other things so that's likely the case now. Only so many hours in the day & higher priorities in life at times like work kids family. Most of my limited "spare" time the last few years has been in crypto land but never left IRC. My notification from the forum stopped long time ago so forget to check in here unless someone pings me on IRC like happened this morning.
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by Dravion » 2019-05-17 02:43

hMailServer has some Problems, so far this is true but if you compare it to other MTAs and MDA Projecs t it has some verry unique characteristics other Email Solution cannot provide.

Native Windows Support 32/64-Bit
There are verry few OpenSource Email Servers for
Windows out there. Even with Cygwin or Windows Linux Subsystem for Windows included and MS-Exchange is a Monster requiring 30 GBytes and overly complex and not easy to handle.

MTA and MDA all in one aporoach
I had to Setup various Mailserver Solutions in the last years, mostly on Linux, Unix, MacOS and Windows. Linux Mailservers like Postfix, Sendmail and Exim4 or Qmail are Console Terminal beasts
and you need a lot of Detail Wisdom to get it right.
Most Email Server doesnt have a Forum and have Mailinglists only for support due to lack of good Documentation you have to go into trial and Error
mode to find out if something is even possible.

hMailServer 5 scales extremely well
The ASIO Framework, integrated in hMailServer
can handle gazillions of SMTP/POP3+IMAP Connections where other Packages like Kerio causing 100% CPU utilization and behaving like a Memory hog after just 1k connections. OpenExchange and Zimbra are not full blown own Products rather than Postfix+Dovecot customized builds with some extras and released for (some Linux Distros)only.Mailgate Pro and Mercury32 are Dinosaurs and even worse.

Usability and GUI
hMailServer is compact, just arround 7 MBytes for
the 64-Bit installer which includes allready the GUI which makes it verry straight forward to Setup and even Newbies in the Realm of Email can archieve decent Results in short time.

Future:
hMailServer has some Problems but there are coordinated Community efforts going on to get rid of things like DCOM in the Coreserver resulting in a rewritten, reorganized DCOM API for Windows (will be an optional Component) and new Scripting Language (LUA) and finaly Linux, MacOS and even UNIX-Support (Solaris, FreeBSD and Solaris).
Not to mention Multiinstancing :)

IMHO
I think its worth it and makes hMailServer (with HCD) even better. But it needs some time because we talking about 200k Lines of Code in the Coreserver itself and we also have to take care of the GUI-Client and compatibility with hMailServer official.

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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by nitro » 2019-05-17 09:32

Maybe not using my native language, does not understand this thread well.
How has HMailserver changed in recent years?
From my point of view, I have been using it for 8 years and it has fulfilled all my expectations, I have used other "paid" mail servers and the truth is that they have not made things much easier, even in what is most important to me, the support.

I started using few POP3 and SMTP accounts, and as HMailserver has grown I have grown with it, IMAP, SSL, antispam, antivirus, webmail, many domains and more than 500 email accounts ... and I have learned everything here.

Why should I consider HMailserver an abandoned project and propose a change?

Maybe that Martin is in the background should not be confused with the project is abandoned, and more if there are other people with interest and projects.

Personally I refuse to accept it and give up all the effort dedicated to maintaining Hmailserver and all the knowledge base stored in this forum.
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by RvdH » 2019-05-17 10:30

I agree, hMailserver still serves my needs brilliantly, people demanding instant TLS 1.3 support....wow!!!
Half the internet doesn't support TLS 1.3 at this stage...even Windows 10 to my knowledge still has no build-in support for it (yet), and TLS 1.2 and lower are still suitable for most user cases.
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jim.bus
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by jim.bus » 2019-05-17 11:26

Nitro,

You just stated my and some other people's (I believe) concern for hMailServer. The problem isn't that hMailServer has changed. The problem is that hMailServer is not changing to evolve with changes such as implementing TLS 1.3. Agreed TLS 1.3 may not be widely used at this point but eventually it will probably be and TLS 1.2 is supposed to have security vulnerabilities that are corrected in TLS 1.3 or so I've heard. MySQL 8 x64 when I had to do a reinstall of hMailServer was the only version available at the time I did my reinstall and it looked like there was not any plans to provide a 32 bit version of MySQL which is ordinarily necessary to run on the Production (latest Stable hMailServer 32 bit version). I had to use my old 32 bit MySQL Client which I fortunately still had (I understand there are other compatible 32 bit MySQL Clients) in order to use the only version of MySQL that I could get from the MySQL website. At least at the time the older versions of MySQL were not available. My understanding is MySQL will eventually only be for 64 bit applications which would leave hMailServer out since the only Stable Version of hMailServer (Build 2425 Production Level) is 32 bit. Right now hMailServer doesn't seem to be evolving to handle these situations.

I can tolerate these situations for a while as I agree hMailServer has looked like the best choice for my level of email server experience. It is easy to use compared to other email servers for which I have only read slightly up on the complexity of using them. Even when hMailServer had a poorer installation procedure, I believe I would consider hMailServer easier to install than the many of the other email servers and I have never attempted to install one of them before. The documentation when I installed hMailServer originally did not seem to specify how you were to configure hMailServer (I probably just wasn't aware of it though) but yet I managed to get hMailServer installed and configured in about 5 days without the documentation which definitely exists now. So while my knowing very little about email servers I was able to install and configure hMailServer so that it was running in a relatively short period of time considering my experience level at that time. hMailServer also facilitated my being able to learn a lot about how email worked on the Internet.

This is why I would want to stick with hMailServer as it seems to work well for me and it is the most reliable application I have. It has never crashed on me.

So my concern is that hMailServer officially evolves at some point. Currently I believe I can still use hMailServer for probably quite a while. Personally I don't like to use Beta Versions of anything though. For some time hMailServer hadn't been updating frequently but it still seemed to handle what was needed and necessary changes did get implemented but right now I don't see much work planned to update hMailServer as actual changes are needed such as when hMailServer eventually may be incompatible with MySQL current versions.

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RvdH
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by RvdH » 2019-05-17 13:03

@jim.bus
Not entirely sure, but i think you can use 32-bit ODBC 5.3.13 dll without problems to connect to a 64-bit Mysql 8.x instance (I am still on Mysql 5.7.x though)
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by Dravion » 2019-05-17 13:24

nitro wrote:
2019-05-17 09:32
Maybe not using my native language, does not understand this thread well.
How has HMailserver changed in recent years?
From my point of view, I have been using it for 8 years and it has fulfilled all my expectations, I have used other "paid" mail servers and the truth is that they have not made things much easier, even in what is most important to me, the support.

I started using few POP3 and SMTP accounts, and as HMailserver has grown I have grown with it, IMAP, SSL, antispam, antivirus, webmail, many domains and more than 500 email accounts ... and I have learned everything here.

Why should I consider HMailserver an abandoned project and propose a change?

Maybe that Martin is in the background should not be confused with the project is abandoned, and more if there are other people with interest and projects.

Personally I refuse to accept it and give up all the effort dedicated to maintaining Hmailserver and all the knowledge base stored in this forum.
Me to.
hMailServer is worth solving some Problems and taking care of.

PS: Checked out myself a lot of difffent Email Server, get them running and was verry confused about how complicated they are.

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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by SorenR » 2019-05-17 13:52

If you wonder who Martin is and what he does for a living...

https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-knafve-99187a2/
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-05-17 14:14

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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by cblaze22 » 2019-05-17 20:56

I am not sure what the adoption rate is or how many hmailservers are currently in existence. However, if we wanted to keep this going and give some incentive then donations should become a big part. I donated $100 the other day and I believe if we have a fund each month that needs to be hit to say fund any new features people want to work on would be ideal. I dont know how that would look but if someone was willing to pick this up we all need to chip in and give incentives for free work.

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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-05-17 21:13

Im not sure that funding is the issue and won't necessarily 'keep things going'. What we want is dedication. And if dedication is to be bought then it becomes a job for them. And a job requires more money than contributions will fund. What is needed is time and effort from dedicated coders and a project manager. That is what Martin is (was).

Dravions project is well meaning but still requires contributors. But then there will be a conflict between official hmailserver and hmailserver 2.0... And that will just confuse people.

What is more those that have hmailserver, once implemented, won't seem so interested in contributing to a solution that already does what they already need for them.

Nice idea though.

[Entered by mobile. Excuse my spelling.]
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by Dravion » 2019-05-17 22:38

jimimaseye wrote:
2019-05-17 21:13
Dravions project is well meaning but still requires contributors.
Thats why i want to port hMailServer to Linux because most OpenSource Enthusiasts and
Coders can be found on Linux. Most of them dont like Windows but are willing to contribute if we have
a Linux port running. Unfortently VBScript on Linux a real Problem, thats why i eyeballing with LUA, which is easy to integrate and as simple to script as VBScript.
But then there will be a conflict between official hmailserver and hmailserver 2.0... And that will just confuse people.
I see no real Problem or confusion
LTS Releases are simply 64-Bit versions
of hMailserver 5.6.7 official with updated OpenSSL/
or LibreSSL version to support the status quo and HCD brings new Features, improvements and Linux Support. But HCD is more than this, its meant to be
a Democratic Community process (right now only MattG and me are assigned to it) to coordinate ongoing work on hMailServer Nextgeneration
wich will be compatible to hMailServer official.
What is more those that have hmailserver, once implemented, won't seem so interested in contributing to a solution that already does what they already need for them.
Email is an underrated Topic in generell and a complex one to and a lot of People tend to think its a given thing and nobody needs to take care off.

Thats why Google and Microsoftpicked up this topic
and made it a Duopoly. I refuse to accept this Duopoly. Email is an Open Standard and we must not accept the status quo.

We need a Email Rebellion :D

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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by mattg » 2019-05-18 02:54

RvdH wrote:
2019-05-17 10:30
I agree, hMailserver still serves my needs brilliantly, people demanding instant TLS 1.3 support....wow!!!
Half the internet doesn't support TLS 1.3 at this stage...even Windows 10 to my knowledge still has no build-in support for it (yet), and TLS 1.2 and lower are still suitable for most user cases.
I'm surprised by how many 'personal servers' don't do TLSv1.2 at all

TLSv1.3 is a LONG way off being used widely.
Just 'cause I link to a page and say little else doesn't mean I am not being nice.
https://www.hmailserver.com/documentation

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jim.bus
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by jim.bus » 2019-05-23 13:21

About having hMailServer run on a Linux Platform, I would hate to see hMailServer migrated to Linux. One of hMailServer's advertised features (so to speak) was that it was one of the few Open Source Email Servers which ran on Windows and for those of us who don't want Linux this was great. I see no problem with making an hMailServer version for Linux but I would not like to see hMailServer stop running on the Windows Platform. I really don't want a different operating system to have to worry about.

As far as 'personal email servers' which don't do TLS v1.2, I apparently don't receive many emails from people with Personal Email Servers. I just quickly went through some of my recent email and found most all of them are using TLS v1.2 as seen when I look at the Email Message Headers. Even Cirque Du Soleil uses TLS v1.2. I naturally don't receive any Email which uses TLS v1.3 because hMailServer doesn't support TLS v1.3 and so TLS v1.3 would not be offered by the sending Email Server. However, I wasn't demanding TLS v1.3. I was merely using that as an example of where one might expect maintenance to occur especially for some of us who want to have high security. hMailServer on the website advertises that it comes with high security (though it doesn't specifically refer to encryption protocols) so one might expect TLS v1.3 would be addressed as a maintenance item at some point when and if active maintenance happens again. The website also advertises that businesses and governments also use hMailServer so this would tend to make one believe TLS v1.3 would be addressed at some point as a maintenance item as business and governments are always conscious about security.

I happen to like many others here want to continue using hMailServer as I do find it very useful and easy to use. I, also, found it to be a good learning tool on how Email worked.

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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by Dravion » 2019-05-23 16:49

A Linux version of hMailServer wont harm hMailServer on Windows.

In fact: The HCD Project supports Windows, Linux, Mac and UNIX (Solaris) 64-Bit.

The Main reason for Linux is to have a valid option to move on if Microsoft does some crap (Updates crashing Windows 10,
or uinstalling Software ect) and someone wish to use Ubuntu or Mac instead. People want to use Windows can do so.
Its freedom of choice.

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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by katip » 2019-05-30 08:19

HMS from a different point of view
:lol: :lol:
wine on HMS.png
wine on HMS.png (5.33 KiB) Viewed 2252 times
https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager. ... n&iId=8895
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by NetChain » 2019-06-25 22:37

Perhaps with the approval from Martin, we should form a non-profit organization, assign the board of directors made of people who in the past contributed the most, in the form of forum support, coding, scripting, and has a deep knowledge of the code, etc. Then add members who would want to participate and contribute in various forms: coding, web development, testing, keeping track of the updates, maintaining documentation, managing the entire "business" so to speak.

By distributing this tremendous amount of work among many people, it would become easier on every individual to do what they can do (and love) the most. And the website should be updated to give the name recognition to the people behind this organization. I'm relatively new here - I discovered the server 3 years ago, did some testing and researched a lot and only started using for my business 6 months ago. But I already recognize a lot of people who is involved here and I have a feeling that hMailServer would not be the same without all of you.

My name is Lev Shamilov, I live in San Diego, California and I know how to form and run a United States section 501c(3) non-profit charitable organization, which would allow the organization to receive donations, open bank account and even receive grands. By running it as a non-profit business, the organization wouldn't have to pay any taxes as long as there's a common goal - a reason that would benefit others, in this case: "maintain the development of the free mail server". I agree that the server should remain totally free, but we should be able to receive donations from business and individuals. The accounting should be totally transparent (as it usually is with nonprofits), so anyone would know how much comes in and out. These money would go towards expenses to run this as a serious business and if we would get a surplus, then we could even pay to every member involved a tiny salary, you know... to keep people motivated. (or not so tiny, depending on the amount)

There are a lot of money in the United Stated that can be donated to non-profits as long as they have the official 501c(3) status, which would get the donating parties the ability to write off their taxes.
Here's something many may not know: if it's done right - this organization could receive so much money that it would afford to hire a professional full-time software developers to do all the coding. It could grow into a real software developing company with all positions to be filled by paid professionals, including accounting, marketing, document writers, etc.

I think everyone here would agree with me on at least one common goal: we all want this project to keep going and be always up to date.
If the original developer (for whatever reason) is unable to maintain this, then perhaps we should help him by taking it of his hands and give it another live.
His name should always be listed as the creator and the founder of hMailServer.

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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by SorenR » 2019-06-25 22:43

From a program rights and privacy point of view I vote that the "ownership" NEVER leave EU. Period!

And certainly not into a Non-profit organisation that involves monetary transactions, tax speculations and such.

Just my 2 € cent.
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Re: Time to say good bye ...

Post by NetChain » 2019-06-26 00:31

SorenR wrote:
2019-06-25 22:43
From a program rights and privacy point of view I vote that the "ownership" NEVER leave EU. Period!
I totally respect that.

I'm just glad that Linus Torvalds allowed his kernel to leave Finland :)

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