Email and the impact on Climate Change

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Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-07-21 07:06

I just found this article
IF THE WORLD STOPPED USING EMAIL, HOW MUCH ELECTRICITY WOULD WE SAVE?

Looks like Email is contributing a lot to the Problem:
Other sources estimate that a 10KB email uses up to 0.074 microwatts of electricity, and a 500KB email up to 3.7 microwatts
Source:
https://wndyr.com/if-the-world-stopped- ... d-we-save/

Average Daily Legitimate Email Volume: 79.82 BILLION
Average Daily Spam Volume: 459.40 BILLION

Spam causes 85.21% of Email traffic on the Internet everyday.

Source:
https://www.talosintelligence.com/reput ... /email_rep

Conclusion:
Email causes the most traffic on the Internet, more than porn, other Websites, Whatsapp, Facebook, Twitter ect.
85% are completely useless and caused by Spammers. Even the remaining 15% legit Emails can be optimized by reducing doubled
attachement s(single instancing) and compression.

Looks like improving hMailServer can help save the Planet big time.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by katip » 2019-07-21 09:33

yes, about 540 billion in total is more or less 270 billion one way (sent or received) which is apprx. confirmed by various other statistics.
for instance here some other interesting facts: https://www.lifewire.com/how-many-email ... ay-1171210

my favorites:
* Over half of the world population uses email in 2019
* Each day, the average office worker receives 121 emails
* 42% of Americans admit to checking email in the bathroom, and 50% do so while in bed

i wonder what percentage of internet total bandwidth consumption is email. i couldn't find any estimation about this. in fact, there are statistics about HTTP traffic but nothing about email, likely because it's not possible to distinguish where webmail is heavily (majority?) involved.
i bet it takes place #2 after video/voice.

have some fun: https://www.internetlivestats.com/
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by SorenR » 2019-07-21 09:51

I believe back in the old days burning witches also had an impact on climate change. Good thing we don't do that anymore.
Now we only have to deal with politicians letting out co2 every time they open their mouths.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-07-21 10:17

There are over 1 billion cars running on the roads around the world.
  • Fuel exhaust fumes
  • Chemical mining and disposal for batteries.
  • Tyres polluting the waterways (every tyre one way or another) and the poison created during their controlled destruction at disposal (when it happens).
  • 30% made of (non recycled) plastic
  • And then there is the methods of power generation to provide the factories that make these cars such as being fossil fuel powered (eg 70% In u.s, heaven only knows about China! It's too high to count.)
And there are plenty of alternatives to avoid using them but cars are just too convenient so we stay with them and accept that it's a fact of life that modern human are evolving in to a technology driven convenience world away from what nature provided

Given the above, i don't think we need to be worrying about pollution footprint of email. After all, think of the trees that have been saved since having it. (Sadly, something the recent Brazilian president is doing his best to reverse).

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by SorenR » 2019-07-21 10:49

According other sources cows will be responsible for 80% of the co2 production in the future. Go vegan and pump your bicycle and you will have a clean conscience.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by katip » 2019-07-21 16:43

jimimaseye wrote:
2019-07-21 10:17
After all, think of the trees that have been saved since having it. (Sadly, something the recent Brazilian president is doing his best to reverse).
or the opposite? i doubt it.
email merely became an envelope of it's attachments which again are generally subject to print out - at least in business environment. ok, we save on envelope material, but at office i berate every day guys who just click on "Print" icon to keep last few lines of a 2 days long thread printed and so print out 10 pages, being last 4-5 of them fancy signatures (set up by default to be inserted to the bottom).
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-07-21 20:05

I have thousands of emails in my inbox and i haven't printed a single 1. I'm sure this is the norm too. Then count how many emails have been sent (and printed) against the amount of paper that world have been used if email were not around.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by palinka » 2019-07-21 20:28

SorenR wrote:
2019-07-21 09:51
I believe back in the old days burning witches also had an impact on climate change. Good thing we don't do that anymore.
Now we only have to deal with politicians letting out co2 every time they open their mouths.
Burning politicians would have a positive effect on the environment. Sustainability might be an issue.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by katip » 2019-07-21 21:43

jimimaseye wrote:
2019-07-21 20:05
I have thousands of emails in my inbox and i haven't printed a single 1. I'm sure this is the norm too. Then count how many emails have been sent (and printed) against the amount of paper that world have been used if email were not around.
me too. 90% of them superfluous. nothing worth even to read, let alone print out.
in '80-90s we were still doing good business in that days conditions. people were humanly "talking" to each other and nobody was calling 10 times a day to ask "is my order out?". phone, telex, fax and snail mail were cash money, not a flat-rate fixed expenses item.
anyway.. i was meaning something else. ok no problem. long live e-life :P
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-07-23 01:16

I just learned that using a ARM64 CPU instead of a x86 CPU (32 or 64-Bit) will reduce the Energy coast of Server extremely (CPU Energy manufacturing costs and Runtime Operation Energy costs).

Interrestingly Microsoft is working on a Windows Server Version for ARM64 CPUs as well. There are also Linux Distros avaiable for ARM CPUs (for Example Rasperry Pie).

I have a Raperry Pie 3 running at my home with Linux on it.
I will make sure hMailServer HCD will compile on it as well to make hMailServer as green as possible.

But it seems Spam is a big energy hog and we need to fight it even harder on all levels possible!

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by SorenR » 2019-07-23 02:04

Dravion wrote:
2019-07-23 01:16
I just learned that using a ARM64 CPU instead of a x86 CPU (32 or 64-Bit) will reduce the Energy coast of Server extremely (CPU Energy manufacturing costs and Runtime Operation Energy costs).

Interrestingly Microsoft is working on a Windows Server Version for ARM64 CPUs as well. There are also Linux Distros avaiable for ARM CPUs (for Example Rasperry Pie).

I have a Raperry Pie 3 running at my home with Linux on it.
I will make sure hMailServer HCD will compile on it as well to make hMailServer as green as possible.

But it seems Spam is a big energy hog and we need to fight it even harder on all levels possible!
Make scripting multithreaded with optional threadlocks and allow a contolled number of workers to carry out scriptlets in parallel. That way scripting become more effective.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-07-23 07:03

Yeah, Scripting will get a complete overhaul.
The COM API is not good way to reduce CPU consumption. Its convenient for Scripting but design wise it has some Problems. How ever, instead of VBScript HCD will have LUA-Scripting which is as easy to learn as VBScript. I will make the Scripting Host work with BOOST ASIO
Threads so it will scale well as SMTP, POP3 and IMAP are doing already now for Years.Martin did a good Job as he implemented rhe BOOST C++ Framework and i will take full advantage of it regarding Scripting.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by mattg » 2019-08-13 03:25

My Daughter at University was sent some 'vegan' spam this morning.

As background, there are a number of vegan activists in Australia at the moment. They raid meatworks and liberate (steal) sheep. They superglue themselves to freeways at peak hour and more. They are wanting our government to act on Climate Change.
Just 'cause I link to a page and say little else doesn't mean I am not being nice.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-13 08:41

mattg wrote:
2019-08-13 03:25
'vegan' spam
How ironic. They all secretly live a bit of meat. 😁 (Made of Quorn, no doubt.)

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-13 08:51

I wont bother with attempts to pick apart the ridiculous logic or attempted reasoning and claims they make.

In all fairness, there is no place for this racism for me. (Im not sure it should be posted verbatim on a forum either as it is just giving his message a free permanent platform that can be searched, indexed and read by all and not deleted by a spam filter but I will leave it with you to decide).
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by mattg » 2019-08-13 14:15

removed

Of course the logic is ridiculous.
I am still trying to work out what value anyone would see in sending garbage like that out. Even the fabled 'sell your kidney on the internet' spam was looking for a someone in extreme desperate need of money. I just don't get the goal of this spam message.
Just 'cause I link to a page and say little else doesn't mean I am not being nice.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-08-13 14:32

mattg wrote:
2019-08-13 14:15
removed

Of course the logic is ridiculous.
I am still trying to work out what value anyone would see in sending garbage like that out. Even the fabled 'sell your kidney on the internet' spam was looking for a someone in extreme desperate need of money. I just don't get the goal of this spam message.
It's almost a criminal act.

This topic is about climate impact of Emails in general and 85% of all Emails are just Spam!
You could save millions of Watts Electric Energy if SPAM could just be avoided. We talking maybe a few hundred Coal or
Nuclear Power Plants which where not needed if SPAM wouldn't exists. The Energy consumption of the Internet is now counted
as a own Country. It's counted as the 4th big Country regarding Electricity consumption and one extrem factor ist just Email spam.
IMHO it should treated like a crime.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-13 14:55

One mans spam is another man's marketing requirement. It can't be made illegal, just against individual policy or T'n'Cs of hosters. Also dumping spam wouldn't save electricity to the extent specified. The servers will still need to be maintained up and running to deal for the eventual non-spam emails.

[Entered by mobile. Excuse my spelling.]
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by mattg » 2019-08-13 23:34

jimimaseye wrote:
2019-08-13 14:55
Also dumping spam wouldn't save electricity to the extent specified. The servers will still need to be maintained up and running to deal for the eventual non-spam emails.
Absolutely

And why I thought this thread was humorous from the get go.

If you really want to REDUCE the impact of SPAM on the internet then:-
  • Don't send NDRs for clearly obvious SPAM - Just accept and delete. By sending an NDR then you are adding to the problem
  • simply delete (not pass nor reject) any future spam from same sender at your firewall
  • Limit the number of emails that you receive generally - get daily /weekly archives from boards like this rather than emails for every post
  • Don't send SPAM, and don't allow customers / clients to send SPAM.
Just 'cause I link to a page and say little else doesn't mean I am not being nice.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-13 23:53

Dravion wrote:
2019-08-13 14:32
This topic is about climate impact of Emails in general and 85% of all Emails are just Spam!
The only saving made would be made by this figure not existing is the capacity of the hosting storage disks wouldn't need to be so big. But then with nano technology and ssd storage (even with ye olde whirly spinny disk thingies) how much silicon and energy would really be saved exclusively as a result. I guess not as much as the effort and energy required to debate the suggestion in the first place.

[Entered by mobile. Excuse my spelling.]
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by palinka » 2019-08-14 01:20

jimimaseye wrote:
2019-08-13 23:53
Dravion wrote:
2019-08-13 14:32
This topic is about climate impact of Emails in general and 85% of all Emails are just Spam!
The only saving made would be made by this figure not existing is the capacity of the hosting storage disks wouldn't need to be so big. But then with nano technology and ssd storage (even with ye olde whirly spinny disk thingies) how much silicon and energy would really be saved exclusively as a result. I guess not as much as the effort and energy required to debate the suggestion in the first place.

[Entered by mobile. Excuse my spelling.]
LOL

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by palinka » 2019-08-14 01:30

Dravion wrote:
2019-08-13 14:32
It's counted as the 4th big Country regarding Electricity consumption and one extrem factor ist just Email spam.
IMHO it should treated like a crime.
I'm pretty sure porn dwarfs spam in terms of resources. Spam is tiny compared to the bandwidth and energy required for hosting and delivering porn. Shoot, it's a known fact that porn drove the high speed internet revolution and continues to do that to this day. If there were no porn, we could likely survive on copper dialup, for which modern websites would have developed efficiencies to deal with the bandwidth. If you want to save the environment and conserve energy, ban porn.

That's not a defense of spam - im just putting things in perspective. Anyway, whether mail servers receive spam or not, they're still running 24/7. How much savings could there be by reducing spam?

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-08-14 05:48

Shoot, it's a known fact that porn drove the high speed internet revolution and continues to do that to this day. If there were no porn, we could likely survive on copper dialup
Thats right but you are wrong if you think porn comes anything close to Email in terms of internet traffic volume.

Email causes the most traffic every day and there is nothing close close to it. Per Day 79 Billion Emails are
sent and this causes the most traffic. The more trafgic to compute, the more Energy it costs.

Traffic on the other side needs to be saved as files on
the recipient storage devices. Email text is comparable a tiny portion if it but attached files within Emails are not.
In fact a lot of Emails refering basicly to a file which allready exists on a Email server like cooperate HTML Email pictures. Thats why top notch Email servers are now implementing features like "single instancing" to reduce more than 80% worth in storage capacity and less storage requirements needed reduces less storage device electricity costs as well.

There is also a big difference between a CPU in idle mode
or a CPU computing complex algorithms (like MIME encoding/deconding or Virus scanning) thats why the FAN's go up under heavy loads which increased overall device temperatures which needs also electricity to cooldown CPUs and Memory Modules as well.

Next Problem is the CPU Design of INTEL Corp. x86
CPUs in general. It costs lots of Energy producing this type of chip on the one side and running it as User on the other side. There are more Energy efficient CPUs out there like
ARM which just needing a tiny portion of Energy compared to x86 designed CPUs and thats why they are used in most Smartphones, Tablets, Routers, Rasperry Pie Mini Computers ect.

There is also a Windows Server Edition for ARM CPUs and hMailServers Development Environment VS 2013 can target ARM CPUs.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by katip » 2019-08-14 07:32

palinka wrote:
2019-08-14 01:30
Shoot, it's a known fact that porn drove the high speed internet revolution and continues to do that to this day. If there were no porn, we could likely survive on copper dialup, for which modern websites would have developed efficiencies to deal with the bandwidth. If you want to save the environment and conserve energy, ban porn.
yes and no. in fact, porn pioneered (invented?) :
1.) e-commerce for masses and MLM
2.) ...Tube things

there is an excellent reading here : http://www.internethistorypodcast.com/2 ... rnet-porn/
(you'll see Ron Levi from Cybererotica was a true genius)
a statement from closing paragraph :
When we look at porn and the Internet, the biggest story is maybe is not how much porn formed or transformed the Internet, but how, and in what ways the Internet has transformed porn.(...) And so, when it comes right down to it, despite Steve Jobs’ stated intentions, maybe the real revolution is that the internet represents perhaps the apex of pornographic technology.
BTW, i suspect that leading bandwith eater currently (in total per year) is phone updates. just see the size of an update and multiply it by nr. of mobile phones on this planet, and this for 2-3 times yearly (at least my Samsung).
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-14 08:50

Next topic: lets discussed how much money it costs and justify why we should spend it exploring the universe and its celestial contents. That too is a pointless exercise and an obsession of scientists that in the end will not make a jot of difference to mankind. Ever.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-08-14 10:47

jimimaseye wrote:
2019-08-14 08:50
Next topic: lets discussed how much money it costs and justify why we should spend it exploring the universe and its celestial contents. That too is a pointless exercise and an obsession of scientists that in the end will not make a jot of difference to mankind. Ever.
You must be joking, right?

Our complete Time Management depends on the knowlege from Astrophysics.

For example:
*
Navigation at see without GPS is done by observation of the Stars with a Sextant.
*
Navigation via GPS is done by Satelites in Earth Orbit
*
Calendering and Day Night cycle relies on observation of the Earth revolving arround the Sun.
*
The Tides of the Oceans is caused by the Moon revolving
arround the Earth.
*
Einstein was thinking About the Stars as he invented
its famous E=mc2 formula which was key for understanding Nuclear Science.

*The Internet was invented and pushed by Science
of Military and resulted in massive wealth World wide.

The lists goes on and on.
Without People thinking outside of the box, Humans had never leaved the caves.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by palinka » 2019-08-14 10:58

katip wrote:
2019-08-14 07:32
BTW, i suspect that leading bandwith eater currently (in total per year) is phone updates. just see the size of an update and multiply it by nr. of mobile phones on this planet, and this for 2-3 times yearly (at least my Samsung).
That's a lot of bandwidth for sure, but now that i think about it, you tube probably accounts for more bandwidth than anything else.

I just think it's counterintuitive that small byte email, even in the sheer volume there is, comes anywhere close to the amount of video traffic. Surprisingly, finding statistics on the overall amount and types of daily bandwidth is hard to track down. That is to say, i gave up in less than 5 minutes, whe i expected it to be an easy thing to find. Maybe my search skillz are not so illz.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by katip » 2019-08-14 14:14

palinka wrote:
2019-08-14 10:58
Surprisingly, finding statistics on the overall amount and types of daily bandwidth is hard to track down. That is to say, i gave up in less than 5 minutes, whe i expected it to be an easy thing to find.
me too.
there are some estimations about WWW traffic for instance. and this includes also webmail.
web based gmail + outlook/hotmail/live whatever + yahoomail + yandexmail... who knows what bandwidth they all together consume?
i'm not sure if there is a public resource telling about global WAN traffic breakdown per common TCP port destinations.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by katip » 2019-08-14 14:29

Dravion wrote:
2019-08-14 10:47
You must be joking, right?
Our complete Time Management depends on the knowlege from Astrophysics.
sure, but i think jimimaseye rather wanted to query from another perspective, such as Mars, Jupiter, asteroids... missions. don't tell me mankind eventually will travel there. mankind eventually will die too. the question is : which is more human TODAY and in reasonable future? starving millions or exciting space adventures with a fractal of their cost millions could be saved from starving.

gentlemen (mods) i'd suggest to split this topic. eh? :roll:
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-14 14:45

Dravion wrote:
2019-08-14 10:47
jimimaseye wrote:
2019-08-14 08:50
Next topic: lets discussed how much money it costs and justify why we should spend it exploring the universe and its celestial contents. That too is a pointless exercise and an obsession of scientists that in the end will not make a jot of difference to mankind. Ever.
You must be joking, right?
No.

Knowing when, or how, the universe 'started' is pointless. Knowing what state "that star over there several million light years away" is is pointless. Knowing the gas composite of Saturn is pointless. The money spent on the missions and probes they send out is pointless.

Good for a hobby, but will never make a difference to mankind other than filling libraries with journals of 'theories' giving us something to read over a cup of tea. And the money can, and should, be spent elsewhere that will make an actual eventual difference through research.

[Entered by mobile. Excuse my spelling.]
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-08-14 15:06

katip wrote:
2019-08-14 14:29
Dravion wrote:
2019-08-14 10:47
You must be joking, right?
Our complete Time Management depends on the knowlege from Astrophysics.
sure, but i think jimimaseye rather wanted to query from another perspective, such as Mars, Jupiter, asteroids... missions. don't tell me mankind eventually will travel there. mankind eventually will die too. the question is : which is more human TODAY and in reasonable future? starving millions or exciting space adventures with a fractal of their cost millions could be saved from starving.

gentlemen (mods) i'd suggest to split this topic. eh? :roll:
We can discuss even Beer in this section, so it's up to us.

@Katip
Science provides insides about the Nature and it's secrets.
This is an everlasting process and never stops. Science also needs other science to provide even better results.
For example Vital Monitors in Hospital or complex Simulations of chemicals in Drugs to reduce or entirely avoid Animal drug testing,
or determine the Weather (which relies on Satelites ect). Even our everyday payments cannot happen without Computer science findings and
the Hardware which is a result of it.

Simply: You cannot built something if you don't know how.To know how, you need to research and research is the core of science.

Also the costs for Science and Education is a tiny fraction compared to military spending. My Country now will pay 40 Billion Euros per year,
while Russia spends 60 Billion $ and USA is spending 760 Billions per Year.

The European Space Agency has a Budget of 5 Billion Euros.
Germany had a overall tax income of 650 Billion and our National Household budget was 322 Billions(which includes Universal Healthcare for all,
pay for the unemployed and elderly People, Education and Science).

I love to see more Science spending in general, from Agriculture, Med and Physics/Astrophysics, Robotics and AI because that is what we need in the
future and in many cases already nowdays.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by katip » 2019-08-14 16:20

Dravion, one must be insane to undervalue natural sciences. i think we all agree upon this.
but let's stay in context. jimimaseye's above statement was:
lets discussed how much money it costs and justify why we should spend it exploring the universe and its celestial contents. That too is a pointless exercise and an obsession of scientists that in the end will not make a jot of difference to mankind. Ever.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-08-14 16:48

katip wrote:
2019-08-14 16:20
Dravion, one must be insane to undervalue natural sciences. i think we all agree upon this.
but let's stay in context. jimimaseye's above statement was:
lets discussed how much money it costs and justify why we should spend it exploring the universe and its celestial contents. That too is a pointless exercise and an obsession of scientists that in the end will not make a jot of difference to mankind. Ever.
Ok, lets stay in context.
We learned that God was not hiding in our near space or on the moon or Mars.
It was important for us to understand that a total eclipse of the Sun was not a sign of a doomsday situation but just a situation which was caused
by celestial Objects.Instead of fear now we had the option to grow by wisdom. We learned how Cosmic radiation passes our Atmosphere and learned a lot
temperature regulation of our own Planet. We learned how fusion works inside the Sun and nowdays we are building first pre industrial Fusion Reactors like ITER
(near the City of Cadarache in France) or Wendelstein 7-X (a German, Fraunhofer Institute Science Facility for Plasma physics). Fusion could some day help us to solve all our Energy problems and we needed to understand the inner workings of the Sun to get a clue how we can do it on Earth our selfs.

We also need to expand to other Planets like Mars.Private Companies like SpaceX building a fleet of Spaceships now which will bring settlers to Mars in a few years.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_und_Super_Heavy

This how it look and Elon Musk's SpaceX Compay is building and testing parts of it now, while meanwhile sending Falcon Rocktes to the International Space Station
every few weeks for cargo transportation tasks.

This how it looks:
BFR_at_stage_separation_(2).jpg
This Spaceship (also called BFR) will also be used to travel on Earth within 60 Minutes to every point on Earth or very City.
This will look like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqE-ultsWt0

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-14 20:06

Dravion wrote:
2019-08-14 16:48
Ok, lets stay in context.
We learned that God was not hiding in our near space or on the moon or Mars.
It was important for us to understand that a total eclipse of the Sun was not a sign of a doomsday situation but just a situation which was caused by celestial Objects.Instead of fear now we had the option to grow by wisdom. We learned how Cosmic radiation passes our Atmosphere and learned a lot temperature regulation of our own Planet. We learned how fusion works inside the Sun and nowdays we are building first pre industrial Fusion Reactors like ITER (near the City of Cadarache in France) or Wendelstein 7-X (a German, Fraunhofer Institute Science Facility for Plasma physics). Fusion could some day help us to solve all our Energy problems and we needed to understand the inner workings of the Sun to get a clue how we can do it on Earth our selfs.
Yes we did because we looked up and studied something that has noticeable physical effects on us NOW and we needed to understand why. Although we already knew about fusion (as that is an existing phenomenon already identified by the study of Physics).
We also need to expand to other Planets like Mars.Private Companies like SpaceX building a fleet of Spaceships now which will bring settlers to Mars in a few years.
No we dont. We CHOOSE to want to expand to them but we dont need to. And, in any case (bringing back in to context), no one has denied that "science" isnt necessary (after all, its definition is just "the systematic study of behaviour of something"), but we dont not need to waste money (and a LOT of money) on the study of the cosmos as it will bring nothing to us that can improve natures existence or its creations on this planet (of which we are one). Studies in to anything else can lead to potential discoveries to which we can then use to further improve the worlds standing (or destroy it!); the same thing cannot be said studying the cosmos or anything that is millions of light years away or understanding of what is beyond the sun or what its made of (...unless its an earth bound asteroid of course :wink: ).

Illustration of point: Imagine, we learn through studies of Supernova that the sun will explode someday wiping out the Earth. So what. What you going to do? Prepare??
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-08-14 22:09

Our Sun will explode in a Superno in 4 billion years.
Thats a heck of a lot of time. Hopefully at this point in time Humabs know howro reach out to other Solar systems ;-)

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-14 23:35

Dravion wrote:
2019-08-14 22:09
Our Sun will explode in a Superno in 4 billion years.
Thats a heck of a lot of time. Hopefully at this point in time Humabs know howro reach out to other Solar systems ;-)
They won't. Never will. Nearest star is 4.2 light years away. Human body cannot withstand light speed travel. Even if they could it would take them 4 years to get there. That is just the nearest star. Not a planet. Or anything habitable. More likely the suitable destination will be millions of light years away. Human life expires around 80 years in. Science will tell you that it isn't going to happen because the maths doesn't work.

So save your money on liking for one and concentrate on the world we live on whilst we have it.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-08-15 00:39

jimimaseye wrote:
2019-08-14 23:35
Dravion wrote:
2019-08-14 22:09
Our Sun will explode in a Superno in 4 billion years.
Thats a heck of a lot of time. Hopefully at this point in time Humabs know howro reach out to other Solar systems ;-)
They won't. Never will. Nearest star is 4.2 light years away. Human body cannot withstand light speed travel. Even if they could it would take them 4 years to get there. That is just the nearest star. Not a planet. Or anything habitable. More likely the suitable destination will be millions of light years away. Human life expires around 80 years in. Science will tell you that it isn't going to happen because the maths doesn't work.

So save your money on liking for one and concentrate on the world we live on whilst we have it.
Scientist Miguel Alcubierre worked out a Scientific Paper in 1994 which illustrates travelling faster than light should be possible.
The foundation of it is Einstein's Theory of General Relativity which was proven dozens of time since it exists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Alcubierre

Regarding "Human body cannot withstand light speed travel. "
It's not necessary to withstand such a acceleration, because warping space time doesn't produce g effects at all because it's travelling without moving :wink:

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-15 01:01

Again, all hopes and theories - theories are not fact, they are just "should be able to, we think"' until seen in evidence.

Even if something can go faster than light, it won't be anything man made or man. And then there is the millions of years required to get there.

And don't start with the nonsense of time travel and tunnels you'll be saying ghosts exist and there are aliens at Roswell next.

Real issues, real problems need study, money and solving. Not pie in the sky imaginations of scientists living a dream.

Seen star wars? Thats not real either.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-08-15 01:06

jimimaseye wrote:
2019-08-15 01:01
Again, all hopes and theories - theories are not fact, they are just "should be able to, we think"' until seen in evidence.

Even if something can go faster than light, it won't be anything man made or man. And then there is the millions of years required to get there.

And don't start with the nonsense of time travel and tunnels you'll be saying ghosts exist and there are aliens at Roswell next.

Real issues, real problems need study, money and solving. Not pie in the sky imaginations of scientists living a dream.

Seen star wars? Thats not real either.
It looks like you don't understand the difference between a theory in a common sense which is nothing else then a guess and a
Scientific theory
A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

By the way, you came up with the words, "it's impossible for humans to travel faster than light, because it cannot withstand the g forces.
Don't open the box if you don't want to debate it.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by mattg » 2019-08-15 01:29

jimimaseye wrote:
2019-08-14 23:35
Dravion wrote:
2019-08-14 22:09
Our Sun will explode in a Superno in 4 billion years.
Thats a heck of a lot of time. Hopefully at this point in time Humabs know howro reach out to other Solar systems ;-)
They won't. Never will.
Europeans once said similar things about the existence of a Great Southern Land - and yet here I sit.
jimimaseye wrote:
2019-08-14 23:35
So save your money on liking for one and concentrate on the world we live on whilst we have it.
'Whilst we have it..'?

Crikey. Is something else coming to take it from us?
And Money is a just an abstract thought anyway really.


Back to saving the world from ourselves...who else doesn't send NDRs for high range SPAM, surely I'm not the only one here actually trying to minimise the amount of email in the ether.
Just 'cause I link to a page and say little else doesn't mean I am not being nice.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by katip » 2019-08-15 08:34

Dravion wrote:
2019-08-15 00:39
Scientist Miguel Alcubierre worked out a Scientific Paper in 1994 which illustrates travelling faster than light should be possible.
for those who hear about this guy for the first time (like me), i found here a good reading from Wikipedia footnotes : https://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw81.html
written by John G. Cramer - physics prof at Uni of Washington, more or less understandable also for dummies (again like me). according to him, as i understand, this theory is arguable however amount of needed energy is in planet-scale and we have no knowledge about how to produce and manage/engineer such energy quantities (he has some other reservations too).

i'm not of those who worship mankind mind. i believe it has it's boundries and is certainly not made for being able to everything.
question is still there: what for dreaming of traveling to other planets while good old mother earth offers us everything we need (unless a cosmic catastrophy in a reasonable timeframe is strictly expected)?
mankind better spends time and money to find a way of living in peace and justice - here, on earth. albeit frankly spoken this sounds to me more unlikely than that fictitious "warp spaceship".
mattg wrote:
2019-08-15 01:29
jimimaseye wrote:
2019-08-14 23:35
So save your money on liking for one and concentrate on the world we live on whilst we have it.
'Whilst we have it..'?

Crikey. Is something else coming to take it from us?
indeed, noone else :lol:
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-15 08:57

Dravion wrote:
2019-08-15 01:06
By the way, you came up with the words, "it's impossible for humans to travel faster than light, because it cannot withstand the g forces.
No I never, I said:
Human body cannot withstand light speed travel.
You need to also consider the amount of energy required and the ipact that energy would have upon the biological body. And this is the same for the skewed idea of space tunnels and time warp or teleportation. (Oh boy). (But yes, there is also the G force). In any case: human + biologically living for several thousand years to get to destination whilst travelling at the speed of light = not possible. And anyway, your hat will fall off.
mattg wrote:
2019-08-15 01:29
jimimaseye wrote:
2019-08-14 23:35
So save your money on liking for one and concentrate on the world we live on whilst we have it.
'Whilst we have it..'?

Crikey. Is something else coming to take it from us?
:lol: No (for the same reasons that we are not going to anyone elses) - we are doing a great job ourselves of potentially destroying it way before its natural life ourselves.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by SorenR » 2019-08-15 09:07

According to Lene Hau the speed of light is controllable... She managed to slow down speed of light to 17 meters/second and she can capture, stop and release captured light at will ... so don't say things can't be done just 'cause you don't understand them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lene_Hau

Wait and see ... James T. Kirk and Jean-Luc Picard are characters of the future!

;-)
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-15 09:11

Great. Lets slow it down to a fast Ussain Bolt sprint speed so we can handle travelling at that speed. Then we can just RUN to the next planet! :mrgreen:
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-08-15 11:16

jimimaseye wrote:
2019-08-15 09:11
Great. Lets slow it down to a fast Ussain Bolt sprint speed so we can handle travelling at that speed. Then we can just RUN to the next planet! :mrgreen:
Now lets talk about time machines ;-)

Do you realize we already have one?

It's called the Telescope ;-)
If we watch the stars with a Telescope, we see thins which hapoend in the past because the light ofthe stars travelled Million of Years so we can see it with our Telescope. Some of the Stars we see in the Skies are allready exploded in Supernovas.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by katip » 2019-08-15 11:39

SorenR wrote:
2019-08-15 09:07
According to Lene Hau the speed of light is controllable... She managed to slow down speed of light to 17 meters/second and she can capture, stop and release captured light at will ... so don't say things can't be done just 'cause you don't understand them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lene_Hau

Wait and see ... James T. Kirk and Jean-Luc Picard are characters of the future!

;-)
AFAIK material FTL velocity is not possible according to currently known physics laws.
but it doesn't mean that nothing can happen FTL. this lady is talking about storing data in light (if i understand correctly). imagine 2 objects each 1 light year far from Earth and from each other (Earth, object A, object B in an equilateral triangle). you beam one single data continiously towards to object A. after 1 year, data starts to arrive there. now rotate your beaming device 60 degrees towards to object B, data immediately starts arriving there too. so in 1 year, your data travels 2 light years distance. (this would be an absurd practise of course. just an example that small physical movements can produce way much FTL events.)

(i'm no wise guy, above was told in "Relativity and Common Sense" by Sir Hermann Bondi)

Faust: "Speak, how swift art thou?"
Seventh Spirit (Devil) : "Not quicker and not slower than the transition from good to evil!"
Faust : "Ha! Thou art my devil! As quick as the transition from good to evil! Yes! Indeed! That is quick, there is nothing quicker than that!"

(true, no?)
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-08-15 12:14

katip wrote:
2019-08-15 11:39
Faust: "Speak, how swift art thou?"
Seventh Spirit (Devil) : "Not quicker and not slower than the transition from good to evil!"
Faust : "Ha! Thou art my devil! As quick as the transition from good to evil! Yes! Indeed! That is quick, there is nothing quicker than that!"

(true, no?)
Requires Good and Evil in the first place.

IMHO black/white good and evil even exists.
Some day you are in a bad mood, doing nasty things.
Next day you are in a good mood and doing awesome things.

Are you now a good or evil person?

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by katip » 2019-08-15 12:35

Dravion wrote:
2019-08-15 12:14
Requires Good and Evil in the first place.

IMHO black/white good and evil even exists.
Some day you are in a bad mood, doing nasty things.
Next day you are in a good mood and doing awesome things.

Are you now a good or evil person?
"So schnell als der Übergang vom Guten zum Bösen". Meister explicitely emphasizes the direction Good -> Evil. this is very fast but the reverse is obviously slow, maybe so slow that it's never done, according to him. our Literaturlehrer once told us so IIRC.
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by Dravion » 2019-08-15 12:56

katip wrote:
2019-08-15 12:35
Dravion wrote:
2019-08-15 12:14
Requires Good and Evil in the first place.

IMHO black/white good and evil even exists.
Some day you are in a bad mood, doing nasty things.
Next day you are in a good mood and doing awesome things.

Are you now a good or evil person?
"So schnell als der Übergang vom Guten zum Bösen". Meister explicitely emphasizes the direction Good -> Evil. this is very fast but the reverse is obviously slow, maybe so slow that it's never done, according to him. our Literaturlehrer once told us so IIRC.
True.
But what is the point judging a Person as "good" or the opposite as "bad"?

We have laws in different countries judging for example stealing as minor or major crime.
If you stole a Horse in the Wild West you would be sentenced to death penalty. If you do it today in the US,
you will get a fine or a warning.

Bottom line:
What is good and was is a accepted behavior?
It depends mainly on your environment you live in.
Last edited by Dravion on 2019-08-15 13:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by palinka » 2019-08-15 13:02

Dravion wrote:
2019-08-14 15:06
We can discuss even Beer in this section, so it's up to us.
Personally, that's my favorite topic, if by "discussion" you mean "consumption". :mrgreen:

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by palinka » 2019-08-15 13:32

SorenR wrote:
2019-08-15 09:07
According to Lene Hau the speed of light is controllable... She managed to slow down speed of light to 17 meters/second and she can capture, stop and release captured light at will ... so don't say things can't be done just 'cause you don't understand them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lene_Hau

Wait and see ... James T. Kirk and Jean-Luc Picard are characters of the future!

;-)
China is pouring billions into genetic engineering. I listened to a discussion once that proposed humanity (or parts of it) could be genetically engineered to have IQs up to 600+. If that happens it will likely be in Asia where they don't have the same moral hangups over experimenting on human babies like the west does. Anyway, a society built by and around those super geniuses can't even be imagined by us dummies and could lead to scientific breakthroughs that we see as impossible today.

Always remember the impossible has been achieved over and over by humanity. It used to be impossible to fly. It used to be impossible to go to space. It used to be impossible to feed 7 billion people. It used to be impossible to build a great pyramid. It used to be impossible to send messages instantly around the world's. Etc., etc..

Nobody has a crystal ball. No one can see the future. Nobody knows if traveling 4 million light years in less than a human lifetime is possible. Nobody knows if the Buffalo Bills will ever make it another superbowl.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by katip » 2019-08-15 14:48

Dravion wrote:
2019-08-15 12:56
Bottom line:
What is good and was is a accepted behavior?
It depends mainly on your environment you live in.
here comes commonly respected moral/ethical values i think. stealing a horse (or anything) is an evil thing, punishment level may vary though according to time and/or society. this we call secular law. it's based on common sense, experience and established values. however they change.
religious law don't change. adultery is an evil thing to be punished with death (in Old Testament as well in Shariah). forever. period.
in fact, all basic moral/ethical values of Judeo-Christian and Islamic societies have roots in their religion. the same should be true also for other societies (Buddhist, Hindu etc..).
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by SorenR » 2019-08-15 14:53

if you steal an a-bomb and destroy it to save humanity that means stealing is good... no?
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-15 15:02

Only if you get blown up with it. It wasn't yours, you thief!

HARD LINE!!

:mrgreen:

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katip
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by katip » 2019-08-15 15:12

SorenR wrote:
2019-08-15 14:53
if you steal an a-bomb and destroy it to save humanity that means stealing is good... no?
thief isn't thief unless he/she's disclosed :lol:
Epicurus, IIRC
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jim.bus » 2019-08-25 01:00

mattg wrote:
2019-08-13 03:25
My Daughter at University was sent some 'vegan' spam this morning.

As background, there are a number of vegan activists in Australia at the moment. They raid meatworks and liberate (steal) sheep. They superglue themselves to freeways at peak hour and more. They are wanting our government to act on Climate Change.
Should be pronounced 'Vagan' with a Long A and not pronounced 'Vegan' with a Long E. And more correctly the word should be Vegetarian. Vega is a long standing name for the brightest star in the constellation Lyra (Alpha Lyra). First known use of the name Vega for the Star Alpha Lyra was circa 1638 thus definitely preceding the use of Vegan in 1944 for the vegetarians. Vegan is an adjective describing something from the Star System of Vega. Some astronomical references decided the pronunciation should be VEE-GUH but there is mixed opinions still on correct pronunciation. Many people in the astronomical circles also pronounce it as I do as VAY-a with the second syllable rhyming with the pronunciation of Uh-Oh pronounced with a Short 'a' sound.

So the people calling themselves Vegans (Vegetarians) really stole the word for their usage. Much like the people stole the usage of the word Swipe to slide something such as a credit card through a card reader. Swipe long before the usage of sliding a credit card was used to mean 'Steal' as in stealing property.

Now how much has this discussion on Climate Change contributed to the ongoing Climate Change?

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by mattg » 2019-08-25 03:22

jim.bus wrote:
2019-08-25 01:00
Now how much has this discussion on Climate Change contributed to the ongoing Climate Change?
Depends on how many get an email sent to them for each post that follow....

In Australia Vegans are seen as different to Vegetarians

Vegetarians don't eat meat, although some will eat Fish, in which case they are pescitarians
Vegans don't eat ANY animal product, ie no milk or eggs


We (Aussies) ask them what they wear, but they don't seem to get the question. Perhaps they are garbed completed in hemp or bamboo derived products, including footware...
Just 'cause I link to a page and say little else doesn't mean I am not being nice.
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jim.bus
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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jim.bus » 2019-08-25 08:18

mattg wrote:
2019-08-25 03:22
jim.bus wrote:
2019-08-25 01:00
Now how much has this discussion on Climate Change contributed to the ongoing Climate Change?
Depends on how many get an email sent to them for each post that follow....

In Australia Vegans are seen as different to Vegetarians

Vegetarians don't eat meat, although some will eat Fish, in which case they are pescitarians
Vegans don't eat ANY animal product, ie no milk or eggs


We (Aussies) ask them what they wear, but they don't seem to get the question. Perhaps they are garbed completed in hemp or bamboo derived products, including footware...
I was aware of the other classifications but thought I would spare the environment against more Climate Change and stick to just comparing it to 'Vegetarian' and a true Vegetarian would only eat vegetables as well hence the term 'Vegetarian' (though you will see the dictionary using your definition. My biggest bugaboo about 'Vegan' was that until only relatively recently like maybe this century had I heard the term 'Vegan' used in reference to being 'Vegetarian' when I always had seen and used it in reference to the Star 'Vega' (Alpha Lyra) and I hate it when someone tries to change the meaning of a word or term so they can have suposedly a unique or different meaning for a word we already have such as 'to swipe' which means 'to steal'.

I get the question about 'What do Vegetarians (Vegans)' wear but remember they just don't eat meat. The definition of 'Vegetarian' only includes what they eat not what they wear. I suppose you could say in a way the definition of 'Vegetarian is hypocritical since except that part of the definition of 'Vegetarian' means abstaining for health reasons and I guess there is no health consideration for them wearing animal hides except it isn't too healthy for the animal.

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by jimimaseye » 2019-08-25 12:32

Show this to a vegan. See their world change.

BBC News - Why you may have been eating insects your whole life
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43786055

(Time to clear the 'animal friendly' lipstick off your lips)

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Re: Email and the impact on Climate Change

Post by palinka » 2019-08-25 13:26

Ever see a vegan wearing lipstick? Not me. Those people have a screw loose. A couple of times a year there's a news story about another vegan infant death or near death because they try to give the baby a vegan diet and the poor child ends up chronically malnourished. Who in their right mind would do that to a child? It's not like these events are completely unknown. Every damned one of them knows the consequences of their kook diet on infants and some still try. Because nobody tried it like they're trying it and they're smarter than any of the previous kooks that killed their children. Those people should be sterilized.

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