Yet another Hotmail issue

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al0000
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Yet another Hotmail issue

Post by al0000 » 2008-01-31 20:22

Hello,

I know this issue has been discussed numerous times before on this forum, but after searching the forum i still cannot solve this issue...

I have everything set up correctly:

1. dnsstuff.com give me a clear DNS report
2. PTR records exist and are correct
3. hostname in hmailserver SMTP settings exist and is correct
4. Allow empty sender address is checked

Still, i can send to everyone except Hotmail accounts...
The message NEVER appears to hotmail, not even in spam folders. It arrives on their servers and gets deleted...

Any ideas?

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Post by al0000 » 2008-01-31 20:39

Ok i just discovered the following:

If i send an emial FROM hotmail to myserver, and then BACK to hotmail, the reply will arrive on Hotmail!

What does that mean?

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Post by martin » 2008-01-31 20:43

That the IP of your server or the email address on your server probably gets whitelisted when you send an email to it from Hotmail.

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Post by al0000 » 2008-01-31 20:49

Hmm...
I wish that was the case but i dont think so.
The IP AND email address of my server are both 1.
The server is hosting a large community with 50k members.

What can i do for it?
I hate hotmail... :S

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Post by martin » 2008-01-31 20:53

> The IP AND email address of my server are both 1.

Huh? Both 1?

> What can i do for it?

Did you really read through those other Hotmail related threads? Contacting Hotmail could work.

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Post by al0000 » 2008-01-31 21:06

If an IP/email gets white listed on hotmail, shouldn't stay that way?

I will contact Hotmail.

Thank you

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Post by martin » 2008-01-31 21:14

> If an IP/email gets white listed on hotmail, shouldn't stay that way?

Hotmail has a complicated spam filter which few or no people can predict the behavior of. Assuming anything regarding it will default to being incorrect.

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Re: Yet another Hotmail issue

Post by esox » 2008-01-31 22:52

Hi!
I have had the same problem and the solution was to contact ""Microsoft Customer Support" <SENDS.EDFS.WW.00.EN.RTA.SEA.ES.GST.LV1.00.EM@css.one.microsoft.com>" The result was a correspondence that started as follows
---
Hello,

We have identified that messages from your IP 217.151.53.170 are being filtered based on the recommendations of the SmartScreen filter. SmartScreen is the spam filtering technology developed and operated by Microsoft. SmartScreen is built around the technology of machine learning. SmartScreen's filters are trained to recognize what is spam and what isn't spam. In short, we filter incoming emails that look like spam. I am not able to go into any specific details about what these filters specifically entail, as this would render them useless.

Please confirm that your emails comply with MSN Hotmail's technical standards. This information can be found at: http://postmaster.live.com/Guidelines.aspx

It will also be helpful to send example emails to randomtestacct@hotmail.com from your MTA so that we can examine the types of emails that you send. This will help me in our investigation. When you do this please send me the subject lines of emails you have sent. Please make sure that these emails are functionally similar to the types of emails that originate from your system, as any deviation from this may hinder our ability to investigate your problem. Do not use the word, "Test" or anything that would change the email from the original message that was initially sent to Hotmail Customers.

I hope that the information that I have provided to you has been helpful. You may also be able to find additional information on common delivery questions at the Hotmail Postmaster Site found at: http://postmaster.msn.com/. I would like to highlight some key areas which I believe are appropriate to your company.

Hotmail has created the Smart Network Data Services program. This is a service that helps legitimate email senders work with their customers and partners to reduce spam originating from their IP. http://postmaster.msn.com/snds/. This program allows a sender to monitor the 'health' of their IPs.

Monitor user complaints. Hotmail also has a sender complaint feedback loop program Junk Email Reporting Program (JMRP). Enrollment in this, free of charge, program will benefit you as a sender as it will keep your e-mail lists updated and populated with interested MSN Hotmail Customers. Participation in this program will remove those MSN Hotmail Customers who do not want to receive e-mails from your company. If you are interested in joining this program please visit Http://support.msn.com/eform.aspx?produ ... ct=eformts.

While using the SNDS tool, enrollment in the JMRP or having your IPs registered with Sender ID will not allow emails from your mail servers to bypass our filters, these are in place to help legitimate companies deliver their emails to Hotmail Customers.

---
I Hope this will be a god start point for you!
/Mats Sjöberg

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Post by gnarl » 2008-02-01 12:07

Hotmail has also been known to drop mail (as in no sender or receipient notification) that originates from IP's assigned to residential DSL accounts.

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Post by al0000 » 2008-03-06 03:58

Thank you all for your replies...

I'm getting back to this...
I still haven't find out what's causing this.

But i have an idea.
I use DYNDNS.COM for DNS server. My IP is not dynamic, i have a dedicated server, but for various reasons i can't host my own DNS server on that machine.

Maybe that's the issue?
Hotmail doesn't like dyndns?

Thanx!

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Post by redrummy » 2008-03-06 04:57

Hotmail doesn't like dyndns?
Since nobody at Hotmail will explain their filtering criterion then we can't know. I wouldn't think that using DynDNS would be a negative, but it's possible. I also use DynDNS and also have few delivery problems except for Hotmail. Sometimes they deliver my mail, sometimes they don't. Frankly, I don't care if I can talk to Hotmail because I don't need to, but I don't have 50k users to worry about. ;)
Hotmail has also been known to drop mail (...) that originates from IP's assigned to residential DSL accounts.
As do others. Having PTR match the mail server's hostname is best, but if PTR contains the word "static" and all DNS records have TTL of at least 12 hours that seems to help.
2. PTR records exist and are correct
3. hostname in hmailserver SMTP settings exist and is correct
When you say "correct" you mean "match DNS A record"? Do the DNS records have a "long-enough" TTL (12-24 hours)?
Last edited by redrummy on 2008-03-06 05:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by al0000 » 2008-03-06 05:03

When you say "correct" you mean "match DNS A record"?
Yes.
I have two A records
One for my domain.com and one for mail.domain.com, both pointing to the same IP address.

Maybe i should try changing the TTL setting on DYNDNS?

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Post by redrummy » 2008-03-06 05:08

Maybe i should try changing the TTL setting on DYNDNS?
What were they before? If they were under 12 hours, I would. Set them for 24 hours, wait for 24 hours for them to propagate, then start testing again. Short TTL records aren't trustworthy. I learned this getting de-listed from SORBS some time ago.

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Post by al0000 » 2008-03-06 05:10

But on dyndns the largest setting is 6hours
That's what they are now

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Post by al0000 » 2008-03-06 05:11

BTW here's a log file when trying to send to hotmail:



"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.578" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 220 *******.com ESMTP"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.578" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: EHLO http://www.*******.com"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.578" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 250-hmailserver[nl]250-SIZE[nl]250 AUTH LOGIN"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.578" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: AUTH LOGIN"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.578" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 334 VXNlcm5hbWU6"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.578" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: aW5mb0Bib3VyZGVsYS5jb20="
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.578" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 334 UGFzc3dvcmQ6"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.578" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: ***"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.578" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 235 authenticated."
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.578" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: MAIL FROM:<*******@hotmail.com>"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.578" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 250 OK"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.593" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: RCPT TO:<info@*******.com>"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.593" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 250 OK"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.609" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: DATA"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.609" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 354 OK, send."
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.609" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 250 Queued (0.000 seconds)"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.609" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: quit"
"SMTPD" 13512 5714 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.609" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 221 goodbye"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.609" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 220 *******.com ESMTP"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: EHLO http://www.*******.com"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 250-hmailserver[nl]250-SIZE[nl]250 AUTH LOGIN"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: AUTH LOGIN"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 334 VXNlcm5hbWU6"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: aW5mb0Bib3VyZGVsYS5jb20="
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 334 UGFzc3dvcmQ6"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: ***"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 235 authenticated."
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: MAIL FROM:<info@*******.com>"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 250 OK"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: RCPT TO:<*******@hotmail.com>"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 250 OK"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: DATA"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 354 OK, send."
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 250 Queued (0.000 seconds)"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "RECEIVED: quit"
"SMTPD" 13512 5715 "2008-03-06 05:06:52.625" "127.0.0.1" "SENT: 221 goodbye"
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:53.046" "**.***.***.**" "RECEIVED: 220 bay0-mc1-f7.bay0.hotmail.com Sending unsolicited commercial or bulk e-mail to Microsoft's computer network is prohibited. Other restrictions are found at http://privacy.msn.com/Anti-spam/. Violations will result in use of equipment located in California and other states. Wed, 5 Mar 2008 19:04:56 -0800 "
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:53.046" "**.***.***.**" "SENT: HELO *******.com"
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:53.234" "**.***.***.**" "RECEIVED: 250 bay0-mc1-f7.bay0.hotmail.com (3.5.0.22) Hello [******]"
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:53.234" "**.***.***.**" "SENT: MAIL FROM:<info@*******.com>"
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:53.437" "**.***.***.**" "RECEIVED: 250 info@*******.com....Sender OK"
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:53.437" "**.***.***.**" "SENT: RCPT TO:<*******@hotmail.com>"
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:53.625" "**.***.***.**" "RECEIVED: 250 *******@hotmail.com "
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:53.625" "**.***.***.**" "SENT: DATA"
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:53.828" "**.***.***.**" "RECEIVED: 354 Start mail input; end with <CRLF>.<CRLF>"
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:53.828" "**.***.***.**" "SENT: [nl]."
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:54.359" "**.***.***.**" "RECEIVED: 250 <2698d7509aebb8a4c27ca2d2cdb3e092@www.*******.com> Queued mail for delivery"
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:54.359" "**.***.***.**" "SENT: QUIT"
"SMTPC" 13512 5716 "2008-03-06 05:06:54.562" "**.***.***.**" "RECEIVED: 221 bay0-mc1-f7.bay0.hotmail.com Service closing transmission channel"*******.com

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Post by redrummy » 2008-03-06 05:41

But on dyndns the largest setting is 6hours
That's what they are now
That's probably part of your problem. When editing your DNS go to Preferences, change user level from Standard to Expert. Then go back and set the TTL on all of your records to 86400.

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Post by al0000 » 2008-03-06 23:42

Ok,

I made the change.
I will inform this thread if the issue has been resolved on not.

Thanx

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Post by redrummy » 2008-03-07 00:01

I wouldn't claim that was _THE_ problem, just a likely factor. As I mentioned, sometimes Hotmail delivers messages from me, sometimes they don't. Good luck!

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Post by plobby » 2008-03-07 00:37

I had issues similar to this at the beginning (forgot to change name from localhost..stupid, stupid, mistake). For the past month and a half I have yet to have any issues 'knock on wood'.

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Post by al0000 » 2008-03-10 03:04

Unfortunately still no messages arrive on hotmail accounts...
:S

The worse part is that i don't know what this is happening. Hotmail does not inform of the error

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Post by mattg » 2008-03-10 03:21

al0000 wrote:If an IP/email gets white listed on hotmail, shouldn't stay that way?

I will contact Hotmail.
Have you done this yet??

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Post by redrummy » 2008-03-10 03:22

Bummer. Have you read the documentation recommended by esox and/or contacted Microsoft? If not, sounds like that's your next step.

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Post by al0000 » 2008-03-12 18:25

Yes. i have read the documentation and i have also contacted Microsoft but they haven't got back to me yet.

I really don't know what to do i'm stuck :S

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Post by al0000 » 2008-03-12 20:25

As do others. Having PTR match the mail server's hostname is best, but if PTR contains the word "static" and all DNS records have TTL of at least 12 hours that seems to help.
Getting back to this.
My PTR matches the mail server's hostname indeed (and that is mail.mydomain.com)

It does not contain the word static.
Does yours contain the word static?
I'm asking because you're using dyndns as well, so hotmail may think that i have a dynamic IP address.

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Post by al0000 » 2008-03-12 20:30

BTW....i just noticed this on dnsstuff.com report:


WARNING: One or more of your mailservers is claiming to be a host other than what it really is (the SMTP greeting should be a 3-digit code, followed by a space or a dash, then the host name). If your mailserver sends out E-mail using this domain in its EHLO or HELO, your E-mail might get blocked by anti-spam software. This is also a technical violation of RFC821 4.3 (and RFC2821 4.3.1). Note that the hostname given in the SMTP greeting should have an A record pointing back to the same server. Note that this one test may use a cached DNS record.

mail.xxxxxxxx.com claims to be non-existent host Hello.: <br /> 220 Hello. <br />

-------
This is weird.
On the hMailServer SMTP settings i DO have mail.xxxxxxx.com as hostname...

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Post by martin » 2008-03-12 20:32

> On the hMailServer SMTP settings i DO have mail.xxxxxxx.com as hostname...

But not as welcome message in the SMTP settings...

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Post by al0000 » 2008-03-12 20:38

That's right.
I corrected it.
Now dnsstuff.com give me a perfect DNS report.
Everything reports "PASS". Not even one yellow.

But still Hotmail won't accept email from my server...
damn! this drive me nuts.
:D

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Post by martin » 2008-03-12 20:48

Did you contact Microsoft Customer Support?

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Post by al0000 » 2008-03-12 20:50

yes i did. a few days ago. still no reply :(

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Post by redrummy » 2008-03-12 23:15

> On the hMailServer SMTP settings i DO have mail.xxxxxxx.com as hostname...
But not as welcome message in the SMTP settings...
This is pretty important for spam filtering. I'm surprised it didn't come to light earlier, but I'm glad Martin helped you get it sorted out.
Getting back to this.
My PTR matches the mail server's hostname indeed (and that is mail.mydomain.com)
It does not contain the word static.
Does yours contain the word static?
I'm asking because you're using dyndns as well, so hotmail may think that i have a dynamic IP address.
My PTR has the word "static" but that's "Plan B" since I can't get full rDNS on my account. If your PTR matches your A record in DNS that's best. So, if...
- A mail.mydomain.com = 1.2.3.4
and
- PTR 1.2.3.4 = mail.mydomain.com
... then that's perfect.

Hope you get sorted out w/ Microsoft.

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Post by Kaan1983 » 2008-03-19 01:18

Nice discussion made me go through my hotmail issue again.

This was the e-mail I received:
  • Hello,
    We have identified that messages from your IP are being filtered based on the recommendations of the SmartScreen filter. SmartScreen is the spam filtering technology developed and operated by Microsoft. SmartScreen is built around the technology of machine learning. SmartScreen's filters are trained to recognize what is spam and what isn't spam. In short, we filter incoming emails that look like spam. I am not able to go into any specific details about what these filters specifically entail, as this would render them useless.

    However, we do base our spam rating on the reputation of the sender. One way to positively impact the reputation of your IP is to obtain SPF/Sender ID records. This technology allows SmartScreen to better track emails from your IP, weeding out spoofed messages. You can find additional information on creating SPF records at http://www.microsoft.com/senderid. We have also published a document on email delivery at http://www.microsoft.com/postmaster. Controlling your complaint rate will also help to improve your send IP reputation. You can do this by enrolling in the Junk Mail Reporting Program.

    Hotmail also has a sender complaint feedback loop program Junk Email Reporting Program (JMRP). Enrollment in this, free of charge, program will benefit you as a sender as it will keep your e-mail lists updated and populated with interested MSN Hotmail Customers. Participation in this program will remove those MSN Hotmail Customers who do not want to receive e-mails from your company. If you are interested in joining this program please visit Http://support.msn.com/eform.aspx?produ ... ct=eformts.

    Please confirm that your emails comply with MSN Hotmail's technical standards. This information can be found at: http://postmaster.live.com/Guidelines.aspx

    I hope that the information that I have provided to you has been helpful. You may also be able to find additional information on common delivery questions at the Hotmail Postmaster Site found at: http://postmaster.msn.com/. I would like to highlight some key areas which I believe are appropriate to your company.

    I would also strongly recommend that you authenticate your outbound email via Sender ID and publish your SPF records for your outbound email IPs and register with Sender ID. You can find additional information and submit your domain for inclusion into the Sender ID program at http://www.microsoft.com/senderID . Please note that technical standards (RFC 4408) discourage use of "ptr" for performance and reliability reasons.
    While using the SNDS tool, enrollment in the JMRP or having your IPs registered with Sender ID will not allow emails from your mail servers to bypass our filters, these are in place to help legitimate companies deliver their emails to Hotmail Customers.

    SenderScore Certified Mail Program. Many legitimate mailers and marketers have qualified and joined this "white listing" program to improve mail deliverability and decrease email from being filtered to the Junk E-mail Folder. Sender Score is a third party program, administered by Return Path. Sender Score (http://www.senderscorecertified.com) is the only White Listing service to which we subscribe.

    The troubleshooting steps in this email are recommendations only. Microsoft makes no guarantees that following these steps will guarantee deliverability to MSN, Hotmail, or Live.com customers.

    Thank You
    Stephen
    Windows Live Hotmail Domain Support
I don't know whether it'll work but at least I'm doing some new things...
We'll see..

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Post by Kaan1983 » 2008-03-19 10:59

Heehe I've enrolled to the SenderID program, they checked my records and so.. and said that I should remove 'ptr' from my SPF record, but the funny thing is that I've done this SPF thing at microsoft's page :D

Well I still have to wait 2 business days
We'll see..

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