distribution list issues

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Zeus
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distribution list issues

Post by Zeus » 2005-12-26 14:57

I am having a problem with a distribtion list for one of my clients. In short, they have aprx 1200 person mailinglist.

When I send an email to the distirubtionlist and hmailserver attempts to deliver the message, It trys to deliver all the mail to a particular domain @ once, which is fine excect that the # of person's in a particular domain (like @yahoo.com, @aol.com, @hotmail.com) are limited to x number of recpients per connection.

I start getting messages like below for domains that have large number of users in the distribution list.

Aol Error

Code: Select all

"SMTPC"	3848	"2005-12-20 16:29:15.446"	"205.188.155.89"	"RECEIVED: 452 REQUESTED ACTION NOT TAKEN: TOO MANY RECIPIENTS"
Hotmail Error

Code: Select all

"SMTPC"	3848	"2005-12-20 16:35:00.696"	"65.54.244.232"	"RECEIVED: 552 Too many recipients"
yahoo error

Code: Select all

"SMTPC"	3848	"2005-12-20 16:44:36.884"	"64.156.215.8"	"RECEIVED: 421 Too many recipients"
Is there any way to "throttle" the number of messages delivered to a particilar domain or can we add this? This effectivly makes it impossible for this particiular client (and several others) to use distributions lists via hMailServer as a a mailinglist.

Thanks

Z

Zeus

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Post by Zeus » 2005-12-28 20:37

:( Am I asking a stupid question, or is this just something that noone knows the answer too :oops:

Z

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martin
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Post by martin » 2005-12-28 21:37

I'm afraid there's no way to throttle this. hMailServer tries to deliver all messages to a specific domain at once, since that gives best performance. But you're right that this becomes a problem if you use the distribution list as some kind of mailing list for external domains. :-(

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Post by Zeus » 2005-12-30 16:26

Ahhh, I didnt realize that the intention of the distribution lists was for internal lists, not external.

Should I stick a "Feature Request" out for some way to throttle this in the next release?

Z

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Post by Jimi_l » 2006-01-03 13:22

Large providers like AOL, Hotmail and Yahoo are all going to be problems regardless of how you split it up. Chances are your domain will end up on the blacklist in a very short amount of time and then none will get through.

For example I have had repeated discussions with the AOL mail team who claim all a domain needs to make the list automaticlly is one customer fingering it. It then goes on and the domain owner spends the next few weeks pleading and waiting to come off. The phrase he used is "this foolishness is all we do, all day every day"

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Post by theTerran » 2006-01-03 17:53

Perhaps a choice must be made between performance and compatibility (or usability) for distribution list message delivery.

Spam has gotten so prevalent that mail administrators (especially those running big servers like msn/hotmail, aol, yahoo etc.) are taking every measure they can to reduce its impact. One of those measures is the grey- or blacklisting of servers that send an email to many recipients, as discussed in this thread.

How about this as a compromise solution? Would require some modification to the delivery process for distribution list messages:
  • hMailServer hosts example.com and localdomain.com.

    Distribution list announce@example.com includes 100 users:
    40 @example.com
    20 @localdomain.com
    20 @hotmail.com
    20 @yahoo.com

    When a message is sent to announce@example.com, hMailServer would see that there are some recipients in local domains, and deliver the message to local recipients in domain-grouped batches (or however works best for performance). Then it would deliver messages to external recipients one at the time, a new connection for each.

    Like this:
    40 -> example.com
    20 -> localdomain.com
    1 -> hotmail.com
    1 -> hotmail.com
    ...
    1 -> yahoo.com
    1 -> yahoo.com
    ...
So, you lose some performance when sending to external domains, but it really seems necessary to do this way to avoid being blocked. I believe this is how some existing mailing list managers (e.g. ezmlm, listserv) deliver messages (I could be wrong though, have not verified).

Thoughts, suggestions, agreement or disagreement? Does this make sense, and is it possible to implement without too much trouble?

Daniel

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Post by Zeus » 2006-01-15 18:19

I know that mailman allows you to throttle the # of messages delivered in any given mailqueue run.

Z

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Post by CraigHarris » 2006-01-15 22:42

Zeus wrote:I know that mailman allows you to throttle the # of messages delivered in any given mailqueue run.

Z
Thats because MailMan is a dedicated mailing list system - hMailServer is primarily a mail server and is not a mailing list system -- distribution lists do not set the relevant headers, and leave the message as if sent to final recipient by original sender (i.e. as a relay, not a resend/forward)
Windows Server 2003 Std ::: hMailServer 4.3 B248 ::: 99% of email rejected as spam ;)

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Post by Blue Ninja » 2006-01-16 04:42

I suppose a feature to either set a per-connection delivery limit, or to detect the "Too many recipients" error (Too bad they don't seem to have standardized on a specific code) and deliver the message to all the recipients named so far, then connect again to try the rest.

However, since dedicated mailing list software already can handle this, I don't know whether it's an important feature for hMailServer to have built-in or not... I guess it would have to be voted on as a feature request.

As for me, I don't need it :-)

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Post by theTerran » 2006-01-17 03:02

Blue Ninja, do you not need it because you don't have large distribution lists? Or do you use some other mailing list solution? If you use something else could you tell us more about it?

Thanks!

Daniel

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Post by Blue Ninja » 2006-01-17 09:17

Ahh, sorry - I meant that I don't have distribution lists!

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Post by Thomas Parvais » 2006-01-17 22:50

I'm really looking for a distribution list (99% external domains) freeware if Hmailserver couldn't handle this correctly. Do you know such freeware on windows server ?

I've one distribution list of 6000 members. Should I implement such distribution list in ASP ? I'm not sure that ther performance will be ok

Thomas

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Post by CraigHarris » 2006-01-25 05:18

My final Linux server currently only remains because it hosts MailMan for multiple domains, with some reasonably busy mailing lists -- I want to get rid of this server within the next month, but I can only do so if I get a Windows based equivalent to MailMan running before then --- if anyone knows of any please let us know; if not, and I don't find any, then I'll write my own - probably with a web interface which could be linked into the hMail WebAdmin

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Post by jkearney » 2006-01-26 13:08

I am currently testing the lyris mail engine, we have a LOT of problems with being marked as spam, due to having 400k+ users, all of whom sign up for it, and can also unsubscribe....

opening too many connections, hitting too many accounts that no longer exist, users marking you as spam even though they've signed for it...

it seems to be an ongoing fight between "we're not spammers" and being marked as such...

I will let you know my experiences with this once it is going...

jk

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Post by atifdarr » 2006-01-26 15:13

I would also like to see the throttling feature implemented in hmailserver. Anyone who has a legitimate commercial distribution list should become a http://www.bondedsender.com. Costs about a £800 a year but it is worth it.

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Post by Zeus » 2006-01-27 08:01

http://www.phplist.com/ for those that cant wait :)

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Post by Thomas Parvais » 2006-02-06 23:30

Zeus wrote:http://www.phplist.com/ for those that cant wait :)
is it easily adaptable for windows & IIS ?

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Post by Zeus » 2006-02-16 05:49

Thomas Parvais wrote:
Zeus wrote:http://www.phplist.com/ for those that cant wait :)
is it easily adaptable for windows & IIS ?
Um, I would not use the word "easy", but the application itself works great!

I used these directions and got mine working on windows
http://users.goldengate.net/~jre/PHPLis ... lGuide.txt

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Post by Slamlander » 2007-03-17 07:47

Zeus wrote:
Thomas Parvais wrote:
Zeus wrote:http://www.phplist.com/ for those that cant wait :)
is it easily adaptable for windows & IIS ?
Um, I would not use the word "easy", but the application itself works great!

I used these directions and got mine working on windows
http://users.goldengate.net/~jre/PHPLis ... lGuide.txt
Not a substitute for Mailman because it's only one-way newletters.

However, I may soon have Mailman working under Win2K/CygWin>Python>IIS>hMailserver environment.
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Post by elkvis » 2007-06-07 05:47

Here is a crazy idea
MaxSMTPRecipientsInBatch - Maximum number of SMTP recipients in batch during delivery.
The maxSMTPrecipientsinbatch value in the setting table in the database is set to 100. If you scale this back to say, 10, the server will send emails in smaller batches.

This will, however, effect the whole server's performance.

I am more that aware of my own ignorance, please tell me if I have misinterpreted the meaning of this variable.

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where is this param ?

Post by Thomas Parvais » 2008-03-10 18:18

elkvis wrote:Here is a crazy idea
MaxSMTPRecipientsInBatch - Maximum number of SMTP recipients in batch during delivery.
The maxSMTPrecipientsinbatch value in the setting table in the database is set to 100. If you scale this back to say, 10, the server will send emails in smaller batches.

This will, however, effect the whole server's performance.

I am more that aware of my own ignorance, please tell me if I have misinterpreted the meaning of this variable.
Hello

I tried to find this value in the settings table (MySQL). On last stable release, I couldn't find it ?

Thomas
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Post by redrummy » 2008-03-10 19:46

http://www.hmailserver.com/documentatio ... rence_smtp
Settings > Protocol > SMTP > Advanced

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Re: distribution list issues

Post by Thomas Parvais » 2008-10-07 11:59

There is still no news about new options to better manage queuing of mails sent to external servers ?

Thank you
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